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John: Who or what exactly is he?

 
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Senmut
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:28 am    Post subject: John: Who or what exactly is he? Reply with quote

Yup, the SOL guy. What is he exactly? How do you see him?
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MAD
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see him as Devon in Knight Rider. Each time I see these episodes I can't get over the fact he was in Knight Rider and I see some sort of strange mix-up between the two series... but you didn't mean that, right?


Seriously: I always saw John as Apollo's good conscience and Iblis as Apollo's bad conscience in many ways. Iblis hit of with Sheba and really stood up to his father, something Apollo both didn't have the guts to do. John gave Apollo good advice on what were the right things to do. Good overwon Evil when Iblis killed Apollo and John brought him back to live.
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Last edited by MAD on Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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Senmut
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I didn't. Of course, to one of my generation, I at first saw him as Captain Gregg from The Ghost And Mrs. Muir.
But anyway, back to John...
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"The dull mind rises to Truth through that which is material." -Suger

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LZaza



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John, the long-suffering servant of the Ship of Lights. "I know it's not our way. It's the best I can do with the material I've got. Primitives."

I recall Adama and Apollo having a discussion about Count Iblis where Adama points out that the Colonials would likely be considered Gods by a more primitive race. The real question becomes, are the race from the Ship of Lights really celestial beings (Gods, angels) or are they simply advanced, evolved life forms that have become the guardians of the universe.

Which of course raises additional questions such as are they also looking after humans on Earth, and why couldn't they intervene in the Twelve Worlds as they did over Terra--or did they try?

As for me, I tend to think they are an advanced race. I love the idea of the mind control and mind reading. Very cool.
Big surprise, eh, Sen?

Wink
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epaddon



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To theatergoers, he was actually the first actor to follow Rex Harrison as Higgins in "My Fair Lady". Smile
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Senmut
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LZaza wrote:

As for me, I tend to think they are an advanced race. I love the idea of the mind control and mind reading. Very cool.
Big surprise, eh, Sen?

Wink


Not sure. Elaboration?
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mikedx
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had the impression that he wasn't a full fledged angel, but somehow under them. He had to do some grunt work. Which is why we see him having to ask approval for things that he had done working with the humans.
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LZaza



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mikedx wrote:
I had the impression that he wasn't a full fledged angel, but somehow under them. He had to do some grunt work. Which is why we see him having to ask approval for things that he had done working with the humans.


Like Clarence in It's a Wonderful Life.
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Senmut
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good points. I did as well. In fact, I almost expected to see ink stains on his fingers...
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"The dull mind rises to Truth through that which is material." -Suger

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epaddon



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The character of John I don't think was particularly well-written in "Experiment In Terra" (and I'm not blaming Edward Mulhare). The chief problem is that seeing one of the Ship Of Lights beings personified this way took all the sense of majesty and awe out of them that they instilled in WOTG. IMO, the character needed to be more intelligently written ultimately because when you use the SOL for humor as they were done in that episode you in the end cheapen a lot of the grander themes that the series had achieved in strong episodes like WOTG.
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LZaza



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I would go even further and say that it contradicted the impression that they left through a lot of vague insinuations in WOTG. To me it downgraded the SOL from me thinking of them as celestial beings, to perhaps only being the advanced race also mentioned. Still, a gaping big hole of "what are they exactly?" was left. However, I have to say, I always loved Starbuck telling John to step aside, or he'd walk right through him. And keeping in mind that that was with very little interplay between them. He had a guarded respect--and I use that term loosely with SB--for them.
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epaddon



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since I personally prefer the Angel interpretation with the religous overtones rather than the "advanced race" thesis, that's another reason why EIT comes off so bad to me. The recent adaptation I just finished for the fanfic list I tried to restore the religious angle by removing those explicit references John makes that make them seem too much the "super race".
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LZaza



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All the same, it is canon.
And as always, it's great that fanfiction allows you to rewrite EIT with the consistency that you would have obviously prefered with the 'angel' take.
I can't remember the line exactly, but I recall Adama pointing out to Apollo (?), that some people might look on the colonials as 'Gods', as their people were looking on Iblis at that time, simply because they could be perceived as so advanced. That also had me leaning more towards a less angels and demons approach.
Do you know where they were planning on taking the plotline if the series had continued?
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epaddon



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We just don't have any idea where they would have gone in Season 2, unless we're forced to accept that Larson memo with its series of bad ideas (killing Sheba, jettisoning half the supporting cast) and I've seen no one who wants to go that route.
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Senmut
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

epaddon wrote:
The character of John I don't think was particularly well-written in "Experiment In Terra" (and I'm not blaming Edward Mulhare). The chief problem is that seeing one of the Ship Of Lights beings personified this way took all the sense of majesty and awe out of them that they instilled in WOTG. IMO, the character needed to be more intelligently written ultimately because when you use the SOL for humor as they were done in that episode you in the end cheapen a lot of the grander themes that the series had achieved in strong episodes like WOTG.


I disagree. John was different, because the circumstances were. In WOTG, the Colonilas essentially blundered their way in to the ages-long struggle between Light and Dark. The SOL beings were under no need or compunction to reveal any more of themselves than was absolutely necessary, and even those memories were blanked out.
But, comes EIT, the circumstances are different. Iblis is not involved here (or at least not personally, although evil is always at work), and there is, as John says, little time. The awe and mystery that the SOL beings engender in the Humans is a hinderance here, and so one of them appears in a more familiar form, to speed things up. If John appears somewhat jocular, he probably has to "dumb down" what's he's doing, in order to interact with a species that his group transcends "by many generations".
Not a thing wrong with the way John was written.
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