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Cain: The real man.
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LZaza



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's why I said "Yes". I was agreeing with you. Don't take it so hard, dear heart.
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Senmut
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 16, 2006 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What, and do without any angst or stress??????????????????????
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epaddon



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Senmut wrote:
Excellent. Very good. I also suspect that there is some sort of history between he and Baltar.


I don't think that's necessarily so. All Cain has to do is find out from Adama that Baltar was responsible for the fake peace treaty, and that Baltar is the one pursuing them.
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Senmut
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, Baltar's utter terror when he finds out that it is Cain after him, as well as the tone Lucifer uses when informing him of the same, suggests a previous history. The idea that Baltar may have sold the Fith Fleet out at Molacay may not be very far afield.
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MAD
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baltar was a Council member. He should know all good commanders, their history and reputation (and there for fear Cain). It's doesn't have to say there's a history between Baltar and Cain. If Baltar had sold out the Fifth Fleet at Molocay, they had probably done a much better job and destroyed all then.
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LZaza



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I'll even out the vote. I'm with Sen on this. Hey, I even wrote it into my last story. I think Baltar was betraying his people long before the Destruction of the Colonies. Giving them away at the Battle of Molecay would have been a great test of Baltar's loyalty, while scheming and planning for the utlimate destruction of mankind.

And Cain's clear fury and loathing for Baltar, and Baltar's intense fear in return (much more marked than that towards Adama), definitely was what lead me to believe there was some history between them.
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Senmut
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup. I agree with Her Zazness.
And, as to Cain survivng Molacay, that doesn't surprise me. The Cylons cannot anticipate the unexpected or unlikely very well. Cain obviously did something they did not foresee, and thus survived. Then he went on to survive for 2 yahrens in enemy occupied territory. Obviously, he kept on outwitting the Cylons in order to do it. How he put it all together I don't know, but in the end, he figured out who it was who sold them down the river.
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epaddon



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll even the score by agreeing with MAD. I don't think there was a history at all between the two. If there was, then why does Baltar seemingly not remember for much of part 2 that Cain is the commander of the Pegasus? (This was one of the weakest parts of LL overall, and I rectified that in the adaptation).
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LZaza



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry? That doesn't ring any bells whatsoever. How do you mean that Baltar doesn't recall Cain being commander of the Pegasus in part 2?
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epaddon



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, notice how throughout Part 2, Baltar knows the other battlestar is the Pegasus (from reading the name) but he never once mentions the name of Cain until Lucifer says, "Might I suggest, the legendary Commander Cain?" and then suddenly Baltar (in what I have to admit is John Colicos's worst acting moment) goes over the top with his, "Yes, Cain! He wants me!" This is treated like a moment of revelation as if up to now he has forgotten that Cain is the commander of the Pegasus and only just now is Lucifer reminding him.
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LZaza



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah. I think that was an episode in which the producers were focusing on Baltar's "insane" side. He is rather manic in this ep, don't you think? Perhaps Baltar wondered if Cain actually survived Molecay. Just because Baltar betrayed the Fifth Fleet--in some opinions-- doesn't mean that he knew who survived the battle. In fact, I had the distinct impression that the Cylons had never really identified their adversary at Gamoray. Cylons can't read Colonial apparently. Wink
No, I never interpreted that as Baltar not knowing who Cain was and that he commanded the Pegasus. I would think that if Cain was the Living Legend that they all claimed he was, that every sentient Colonial would know what Battlestar he commanded.
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epaddon



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"In fact, I had the distinct impression that the Cylons had never really identified their adversary at Gamoray. Cylons can't read Colonial apparently"

Except that all throughout Part 2, long before that revelation moment to Baltar about Cain, Baltar and Lucifer keep referring to the "Pegasus" so they do know what the other battlestar is, and that's why I felt the connection about Cain shouldn't have been treated by Baltar as such a big shocking moment of revelation that they treat it as.
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LZaza



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to have to watch it again, Eric, with your view in mind.
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Senmut
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As to identifying their enemies, I think the Cylons on the ground got as far as "Uh oh", before the Vipers pulled their plug.
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LZaza



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

epaddon wrote:
"In fact, I had the distinct impression that the Cylons had never really identified their adversary at Gamoray. Cylons can't read Colonial apparently"

Except that all throughout Part 2, long before that revelation moment to Baltar about Cain, Baltar and Lucifer keep referring to the "Pegasus" so they do know what the other battlestar is, and that's why I felt the connection about Cain shouldn't have been treated by Baltar as such a big shocking moment of revelation that they treat it as.


Okay, I took another looksey at the ep, and I see your point, Eric, about Cain not really being associated with the Pegasus, or that being an important element until Baltar wonders who would be crazy enough to not engage the Cylon attack force and head straight for his baseship. But to me it seemed more a point of tactics, rather than Baltar's memory. Baltar was expecting the Colonials to behave predictably. and the fact that it was the Juggernaut out there changed everything. But obviously Cain had to illustrate that he wasn't going by the Handbook before Baltar sat up and took notice that he wasn't dealing with the run-of-the-mill commissioned flyboy. Instead, he was up against someone with little conscience and lots of ego--sound like anyone else we know? Yeah, that realization would terrify him.

Oh, and when I said that it seemed the Cylons had never identified their adversary at Gamoray, I was referring to the former solo attacks by the Pegasus that Cain and crew bragged about in the first part, not the combo forces of Galactica and Pegasus later. In fact, that's what seems unlikeliest to me about that ep. The Cylons had never identified Cain and the Pegasus as being the attack force that was hitting them relentlessly in that sector. And that the Cylons either didn't know about the existence of the Pegasus, even though her fighters were apparently constantly engaging them, or that they hadn't shared that information with Baltar and the other two Base Star commanders who were going to destroy the last Battlestar, Galactica.

As for not agreeing with the Molecay Conspiracy Theory--hey, great name! Want to form a club, Sen? Laughing Wink --based on the fact that Baltar and Cain couldn't have a history because Baltar didn't readily associate Cain with the Pegasus, well, I don't necessarily think that Baltar would have been personally familiar with all the details of each ship and commander at Molecay. The intelligence he leaked that would give away the Fifth Fleet, would have been more related to the size and power of the Fifth Fleet, when they would be arriving. and any strategy set forth. The history to Cain would be a personal one if he figured on Baltar leaking the info that destroyed his comrades, especially when he found out later that Baltar gave away the Colonies as well. That would hammer the final nail in Baltar's coffin from Cain's pov. But from Baltar's point of view, the traitor gave away an entire Fleet of battleships. Cain was only one of the many men there. It was less personal. It wasn't Baltar versus Cain . . . at least until Gamoray gave Cain that chance for revenge.





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